EP 11 - Business and cocktails with Mike Chopra
It began with a cocktail, not a business plan.
When Mike and I met for the first time in London, there was no agenda. No immediate transaction. Just two professionals in the insurance space talking about work, values, and why we do what we do.
That conversation set the tone for everything that followed.
In this Episode:
A reflective conversation between Francois Jacquemin and Mike Chopra on the future of protection: trust, cross-border complexity, empathy at scale, and technology’s promise in global insurance delivery.
We spoke then, as we do now, about protection. But not in abstract terms. In human ones.
Protection is not theoretical. It is lived.
Insurance is not a product you buy for today. It is a promise you test when life breaks its pattern. Whether it’s a child in a hospital abroad or a spouse calling for support in a new language, the question is always the same: will someone be there?
Protection is not about wealth or health alone. It is about preserving the ability to live without fear, to work, to raise families, to navigate the world with a basic sense of security.
Globalisation has not simplified protection. It has made it more fragile.
Together, we’ve worked across geographies, languages, and systems. Every new border introduces variables: legal nuance, medical expectations, cultural perceptions of care.
We are more connected than ever. But that connectivity adds layers of complexity. Maintaining consistent protection standards across fragmented systems requires more than policy clauses. It requires cultural understanding, operational discipline, and leadership that knows how to listen.
Technology scales access. But not empathy.
Michail leads an organisation using technology to simplify medical journeys, virtual cards, real-time translation, and platform interoperability. These advances are real and welcome.
But we both agree: technology alone cannot carry the emotional weight of protection. When something serious happens, people want clarity. They want to hear that you are covered. They want to feel that someone sees them.
That is not an algorithmic moment. It is a human one.
The future of protection is proactive. But it must remain mutual.
AI and biometrics offer powerful possibilities for prevention. We can already predict illness with increasing accuracy. Wearables and health platforms will soon inform underwriting in ways we once thought impossible.
But there’s a line. Protection is not just about precision. It is about solidarity. Hyper-personalised insurance risks are becoming exclusionary. If we price every risk perfectly, we remove the very foundation of why insurance exists: to share the burden of risk.
Trust is not built in moments of success. It is tested in moments of crisis.
A denial of coverage is never easy. But how that message is delivered matters. Human clarity is part of the product. Saying no is sometimes necessary. But when done with empathy, it can still reinforce trust.
We spoke about cultural missteps, service inconsistencies, and the reality of fragmented teams. These are the cracks that erode trust if we’re not vigilant. At every level, product, process, people clarity, and alignment are essential.
This episode is not about nostalgia. It is about the kind of leadership our industry needs more of: relational, not just transactional. Reflective, not just reactive. Human, even as we embrace machines.
Insurance doesn’t work in isolation. Neither do we.
When trust is built early and earned consistently, we can navigate complexity with clarity and deliver protection that means something.
Timecode:
00:00 How We Met: The Beginning of a Partnership
00:29 Building Trust Over Cocktails
01:29 The Importance of Personal Relationships in Business
04:09 Francois' Career Journey
06:34 The Evolution of Our Business
07:59 Delivering Service with Human Empathy
11:34 The Role of Technology in Insurance
26:10 Cultural Sensitivity and Global Reach
31:12 Leveraging Technology in Claims Administration
31:48 Cultural Sensitivity in Global Operations
33:49 The Importance of Human Connection
34:19 Concerns About AI and Social Media
36:49 AI's Role in Healthcare and Prevention
42:41 Proactive vs. Reactive Insurance
53:12 The Future of Hyper-Personalized Insurance
57:31 Balancing Technology and Human Empathy
Francois Links:
Apple Podcast
Transcript:
Francois: So how did we meet? It was, uh, three, four years ago, right?
Mike: Yeah. Four, four or five years ago. I think it was. Um, was it at your offices or did we go for lunch straight
Francois: no, we had, uh, it was in London. It was, uh, we, we went for lunch in that, uh, sushi
Mike: Garden. Sushi samba That's right. Sushi
Francois: was amazing. We, we never, we'd never met before. I mean, yes we did on, uh, on the, on the conference calls and so on, but, uh, never
Mike: in real, in real life. I dunno. It was what I remember, one is sushi Samba is one of my favorite restaurants. But one of the things that always sticks with me is I sat down and we said, oh, we're gonna have a drink. And I said, well, I'm, I'm not really a big beer drinker. I like cocktails. And you went, oh. So do I, I don't really like beer. I drink cocktails as well. So I think, I think that was, that was it? wasn't it?
Francois: Yeah. First connection. So the, the key was that it, personally, it worked. Uh, of course there was a, there was a business, but that, uh, un personal. We established a, a common understanding and it clicked, uh, very quickly. And, uh, the cocktail bit was, was kind of amazing because you like girly cocktails and, and so do I. So we ordered a cocktail that looked like maybe not for, you know, expecting for us, but, uh, sweet and, and nice and uh, and we stayed quite late, isn't it? We um, that's a good
Mike: were there for a good three, four hours at least
Francois: Yeah. We last, last customers of the. Of the restaurant
Mike: the day. Yeah. I look for me, Francois, I think, um, you know, business is business, but we're all human beings and isn't it nice to do business and work with people that you really get along with and you respect and you like, and I think. Um, one of the things that I pride myself on is I, I'm quite, I'm a quite a good judge of character, and I think from the minute that I sat down and we started talking, I just felt very comfortable. And for me, that's, that's the number one thing. I feel comfortable, therefore, I trust you now. If I trust you as an individual, as a person, I trust you with my business as well. So I think from that initial meeting, it was very easy to see that, you know, this was, this was a guy that I'd like to get to know as a friend, and also I'd like to do business with him. So it was, it was a fantastic day.
Francois: Yeah. and then afterwards it, it worked as well. So I, I enjoy the day. I'm gonna say that, uh, I didn't expect it to be that long. But, um, I always found in all my career that, um, uh, personal relationship are very important so that there are some of them that, that don't work, some of them that work, but, um, the business that we are in is people business. We we're insured people, um, or people, our client and, uh, and that there are intermediaries between us and, and, and, and the client. And, um, it's also, they are individuals. It is basically people business. The biggest value of our industry is the people that work together to be able to deliver to client. So, uh, when, when it's enjoyable. There's a, there's a better understanding. There's a motorway towards a goal I find at least, and a better understanding on what, what, what we're doing. Open discussion, the ability to, to, to say what is needed to be said when it's working well and when it's not working well. I remember a discussion we had afterwards, which was a bit more difficult, and he said, Hey, Fran, you know, and then, and then thank God we had established this amazing moment. Uh, of, of, of, of basis and a strong basis of, uh, of our relationship to go through, uh, a bit more difficult moment, uh, which, which were, you know, passed by quite easily. I found.
Mike: I, I, I, that I think you hit the nail on the head and as I said, you know, trust is, is sort of the foundation of working with individuals or just being friends with people. And I think off the back of that initial meeting. You know, we went through some tough times. We went through some good times, but at the end of the day, I think we both knew that we had each other's back. We would always try and do the best for each other, business wise, company wise, et cetera. And I think that just solidifies the relationship. And, um, so what have you been doing Francois, for the, for the last little while that you've been doing your, uh, podcast covered?
Francois: Oh, uh, well, I've been focusing on that. So before that I went, uh, well, I was, I was in the insurance industry for, for, for a long time and, um, uh, always driven internationally. So that's, uh, that's been my. My drive is, uh, I like travel. I, I like going towards, towards people. I like meeting something new. I like using also, um, uh, my ability to connect with people because it's something that I enjoy. Um, and I was, uh, I was CEO of a company in Luxembourg, a, a long time ago, and insurance company belong to, to a big German insurance group. Then I went to the group center for, for, for five years doing. Global steering. And then, uh, did a bit of, um, um, global employee benefit working in establishing a new, a new product, uh, with several tribes or division of the, of the, of that group. And then I went back to Luxembourg working for a, um, a, a company, uh, smaller, much smaller insurance, uh, little insurance group. But they had the ambition to, to create, uh. To create something internationally. So the, the startup mode was, uh, was there a totally different than, than being a global player like with the German company, but a small one was, uh, was also exhilarating. So as it was a small team to grow from, from a very small, uh, premium income to, to much, much bigger. So that was a, a growth. We, we grew more than tenfold over four years. There was also an acquisition and there was a lot of, uh, exhilarating moment. So that was, uh, that was uh, that was great time.
Mike: Oh, look, it's,
Francois: and and that's how we met, isn't
Mike: Yeah,
Francois: That's how, that's how we met in a, in a certain stage of, uh, of your career and your, your whatever you were doing. So that, let me see it. I don't want to take
Mike: Oh, no, no. I mean, like, um, no, it, it, and it's interesting for me again. Speaking to yourself because you've come from a very large insurance company. You've worked within certain products, and then you've gone to a smaller. Startup, so to call international insurance company. And then you, uh, you drove that, uh, for, for a number of years. And so it, it's always interesting to see that perspective from someone who's sort of worked in, let's say the various difficult different verticals of insurance. IE large insurance company, medium and then small. Um, what I. What obviously I've done in my career, so to say, is, um, me and my father started a consultancy brokerage business 30 years ago. We were focused on mainly Indian, um, MNCs, sending employees overseas. We built that brokerage, sold that off several years ago
Francois: to do that with your father, isn't it?
Mike: absolutely. And look for me, I think. Now that I've hit my fifties, um, those are the things that I really think about most is sort of my family, my kids, what we, what I did with my father. Whereas maybe 10, 15, 20 years ago it was, well, I was able to buy this house, or I was able to get that car. I was able to go on that holiday. So my perspective has changed. I think for me, the most important thing is your family. Um, your loved ones, but then when you sort of extrapolate that outwards, the way I look at it anyway is Mayfair. My, my, my company. All of my employees are part of my family. They're an extended part of my family. The members that we look after are part of our extended family and we have 200,000 or so, uh, people lives that we care, care for globally. Um, so how do you deliver that? Continuously in the, in the international space, and it's something that I probably speak, uh, a lot about, is how do we leverage the technology to have human empathy, to make our members' lives easier, to treat them better, and to give them a better medical result. At the end of the day, what we've, um, what found is having the brokerage. Then we had our own captive insurance company, which we ran for a number of years and then sold off, and now we've gone into. Where I think is probably the hardest part of the delivery cycle when it comes to medical insurance, which is delivering the service, and it's how do you use the technology? Because we're an InsureTech business as well. How do you take that technology, make the members. Life easier. Make the insurance journey easier, give better results to insurers and underwriters so they can improve their pricing and keep their underwriting margins steady. And that's, and, but marry that with human empathy. I think one of the things specifically in IPMI global insurance that you have to always remember is you're dealing with human beings. You may be dealing with someone who's in a different country for the first time, different culture, different food, different weather, and now they fall sick or even worse, one of their loved ones fall sick. How do you ensure that you deliver the service correctly to everyone, but keeping human empathy? What
Francois: is service? Because service is like, is it, is that being there for them or is that you give them a peace of mind? Basically insurance. Um, and, and, and we, we talk about insuring people here, it's about providing somebody with a, a risk less environment than without insurance, right? Correct. So providing the service is delivering on that promise. Somebody's gonna pay money is a, is an employer, is a, is a, is a father, a mother of a family going somewhere outside their own country in the unknown. And being into a, a, this, this environment where there's less security than at home. And the certainty that would provide with insurance is, um, is, is trust. Because when the money's paid, you don't know if you're gonna get sick or the person is going to get sick or the family is going to get sick, or there's an accident or something bad is going to happen. So at the moment it happens, you have to be there and that moment can be anytime. Right. So it's, uh, especially in the service part,
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Francois: you uh, you need to be there to pick up the phone and tell the hospital, yes, that person is covered, or don't worry about it. Something's going to, uh, to, to, we are going to take
Mike: of. Yeah. We're gonna pick
Francois: And Mrs. Exactly.
Mike: no, I, I think, you know, you just said it a, a second ago, it's, you are selling something that the person isn't buying. A glass of water or they're not buying a laptop, they're buying something that will protect them in case something happens. So when you sell them that insurance policy, you better deliver on the service because that's actually what you're selling them. You're selling them. That policy's gonna take care of you if something goes wrong. So then if something does go wrong and you don't deliver the service that you've promised, well then you haven't done what you said you would. So you're absolutely right, but it's. I guess it's, you gotta build the right policy, you gotta understand what the people need, where they're going to, and then obviously the service that's delivered off the back of that has to be spot on.
Francois: Exactly. And I find the ecosystem of insurance amazing and, and, and, and so strong because. There's creativity coming from all the sides. It's not about being an insurer and being able to deliver all the services. Of course, some insurers do that with agencies and, and, and, and, and, and, and big back office. But they do that for a specific product in a specific location. We talk here about global business with global reach, and uh, there's no one in the ecosystem that's able to deliver. The, the full extent of it. So what we've always done when I was working for the big German insurance group, uh, of course it's very big. So the, the, the part of the ecosystem that you have at home is, is very, very broad and you're able to, um, use that power to deliver to the client. But even then, you have to rely on external parties to be able to deliver a very specific element of the service. Manage a relationship in a specific country. It's never happening fully in one piece of the ecosystem. And, and I find that the, um, the investment into new technology of the, the insurance sector and whether it's the insurers themselves, the reinsurers, uh, or, or the new entrants or those that have been established for a while, that invest actually quite a lot of money, requiring a lot of capital. Or additional investment to, uh, to grow and be able to survive in the environment. This big, big competition element. But, um, there's space for a lot of people. There's a space for, for, for creativity and, and I find this, this, this is ecosystem usually very, very interesting. Um, personally, I'm open to very much. Creating Alliance Alliances, of course, uh, you have competition from, from others. But Alliance for me is, is an important element. And uh, that's something that we've established also. The first time we, we, we, we discussed is, uh, is, is creating an alliance aligning interest and working out how we can deliver for our client better in, at the end of the day. And, and it's not about. One day only. It's, it's like we have to keep on working on that element, days in, days out. And after a while it's, it's actually clicking very well together and the servicing element is coming. And I haven't spoken about the digital and digitalization elements, but I speak always about the, you know, the, the, the collaboration. How can we work together and, um, and, and, and working out. How we make it happen. So it's not about the wishful thinking, intellectually thinking we can make it work, but how does it really work? How does it click in reality and, and keep on working on it. And uh, you spoke about the family and the teams. The two of us we met, that was great. But if the team don't like each other, they can't work with each other. It's just not, not, not, not working. So the things is, the things are that we have to go home, do our homework, get the team working to, to, to, to, towards that goal, getting the vision in. And the teams has also the need to click and, and, and get the things working together.
Mike: Absolutely. Yeah. No, look, I think, I think there's, there's, there's a few things that you've sort of touched on there. I think, I think one of the great things is because you've had the experience, you've had, you are very able to see. The path to growing a business when it comes to insurance, whether that be IPMI or PMI, and I think that comes because of your experiences that you've had and where you've worked and what you've done. So I think that's, that's, that's a fantastic PERS perspective and very interesting. And look, for me, I used to always be of the belief is, oh, you know, well I wanna build everything. I want to control everything. And. That's how we are gonna ca that's how we're gonna capture a bigger piece of the market. But you're absolutely right. That's, that's never gonna work because of, because technology is moving so quickly. As we can see with APIs and AI and you know, robotic claims adjudication and things like there's no way that you could control all of that technology ecosystem if you try and I think that would be a disaster. So we've actually, our whole base system is fully a pable from very different. Different platforms, et cetera. Um, and I think more and more insurers, uh, health benefits administrators, TPAs, are working in this way. Um, you know, uh, there's, there's a new, uh, service that we've launched where we can issue you a virtual credit card into your app for paying for a treatment when you go to a hospital, rather than being reimbursed. That technology would've taken us years to develop test, and we just don't have the, the, the capacity or probably the knowledge internally to have developed something like that. So you have to work with partners, um, and I think, uh, to your clients and to your members as long as you're delivering the service that you've promised them. It doesn't matter if you work with third parties and you work with, uh, other, other partners to deliver that service, as long as you are delivering what you've promised the end, the end user.
Francois: I fully, fully agree with that. And um, even the biggest one is, I say to do, uh, at the, at the beginning are a need to rely on external, external parties. Now, external parties are there to acquire a competence or a set of competence that you don't have at home and vice versa. So you're servicing companies, as you explained, you focus now on really servicing clients, helping insurers, optimizing the value chain in the delivery to the client in terms of timing, in terms of breadth, in terms of scope, cultural integration, et cetera. So there's many element to this and, uh. Partners us at, at, at the time where we, we, we are a risk carrier. We understand the market. We can link with distributors, with the headquarters of the clients and be able to also take part of the relationship with the client, but not necessarily the, the client, uh, who are covered, the insured, but the, the policy holders or the corporate client who's owning the policy and paying a big. Premium so that their employees can go all over the world in a, in, in a very safe way. Um, safe for themselves, safe for their family, but safe for the employer as well. Because for their expat, having people send somewhere is a big cost, is a big investment. And they need to make sure that, uh, also the financial element are, are, are there. But at the end of the day, the servicing element that, that you provide to the client and that we were looking for. Is something which is, um, is, is crucial. If the client is not happy with the servicing element, he doesn't care or she doesn't care about the premium. What's the, the what matters is the peace of mind of the HR department of the CFO of the manager who send those people abroad so that there is, everything is going smoothly. When there is a problem and there's always a health problem, there's always an accident. There's always a heart attack. There's always whatever happens. this is why we there, because this is the moment of truth. This is the moment where we need to prove that we're there for them and and teamwork between several elements of the ecosystem then need to work in a seamless way. You spoke about API if the API don't work whether they are actually digital API or people API. Because also this is also an important one.
Mike: Yeah. Very well said.
Francois: about, uh, API in terms of people more interfaces, but it's the same issue. That's where it can grip. Audits where when it works, it can be successful.
Mike: Yeah. Look, I, again, you know, it, it's, it's like any business that I've ever been involved in. If you, as the leader, get along with the leader of the other entity, great But if your team's under you don't see eye to eye, it doesn't really matter what the leaders say because it will never work smoothly. Um, so one of the things that we. I, I speak about with, with all of my employees, and a lot of them have been with me for 15, 20 years now, is I always say, look, simple rule is you deal with other people the way you would like to be dealt If you treat people with respect and you treat them, treat them with kindness, that's what you'll get back. So not just our partners, not just our internal stakeholders. Not our, just our members, not the insurers we work with everyone. You have to treat the same way as you would treat anyone else as you would like to be treated. So deal with them with respect. Give them time, put the effort in. And what I find is if you develop those relationships within work, those people will put in more effort when it comes to if you need something in an emergency or you need some help. They will go that extra mile because you've gone that extra mile for them And that for me, look at the end of the day, health insurance, what are we doing? We are looking after human beings in their greatest time of need. Someone I, uh, heard it the other day, I think it was on a Joe Rogan podcast, was health is wealth. That's it. If you don't have your health, doesn't matter how much money you have, doesn't matter what else you have access to. If you don't have your health, you've got nothing.
Francois: Yeah. no, super super important as well is the clarity because we, we, not everything is covered all the time, so there are things that are covered, things that are not covered. Uh, without going to the, into too many details here, but it, it happens every, every, every, uh, medical insurance is, is, is, uh, is related to, to limits and, uh, to, to two levels of, of coverage and, and, and element that are covered now. usually. people will hope to be covered because they have a, a, an issue and, um, it's emotional and, uh, this is the moment where human element is, is super important because when we have to say no, then we have to explain why it is a no as. Sometimes, of course, of for human reasons. Sometimes there's a bit of weakness that says, uh, we, we, we'll do it. And it's a weakness from more the underwriter point of view here. Um, but there's some, some terrible moment for, for people where you just decide for, for a big policy or for for humanitarian reason that you, you, you make, you make a step and, um, um, in, in, in the direction of the client. It doesn't mean that you're endanger. Your portfolio and you create losses where there shouldn't be losses or that everybody's covered, uh, for, for, for no reason. Because then if you pay undue money to, to somebody or uncovered, uh, the the claim, which is not covered to somebody, then you endanger the whole population of the client that trust, that they have trust in you for what? They are covered for. So it's, this is a fine line to, to, to always play with. And, and because it's emotional then there's always an, an, an impact. And whether, uh, it is one of my underwriter or me, you know, when, when it involves some, some terrible cases. I don't want to be to to too specific here, but there are things that, that you take home and, and you can't be called always because you have to say no. And when you say yes, that's the easy bit. But you're not a leader, you're not the manager you, you're not the CEO if you say yes to everything. So you have to, to, to take, to balance all the elements. What I, I found always super interesting is all those people that, that are covered, um, that are thankful for it, and those people that are not covered and you explain them very clearly why they're not covered in a human way. Of course, sometimes they're not happy, but they're also thankful for the clarity. You can't say no a hard no by email because you don't have. Uh, what it takes to explain it to them. This is the moment where actually it demonstrates that you are there for them, even when you say no
Mike: I, I couldn't agree more with you. And I think, um, I think for me, because we mainly deal with corporates rather than retail, although we've just entered the retail market, um. The broker or if the insurer or the client's gone directly to the insurer has to be very clear on what the policy covers and doesn't, and really needs to spend some time with the client making them understand that. Um, because it, it, it does then make it slightly easier when you get to maybe turning down certain claims, but you're absolutely right. What you need to always be able to do is, even if it's a no, you need to be able to explain it, and you need to have that human empathy. So it's not just an email saying, oh, this is declined, this isn't covered. Um, I like our, our guys to actually call people and speak to them and go, look, the reason this isn't covered is this, this, and this. Because you're absolutely right. Uh, insurance policies are not going to cover every single thing from A to Z otherwise. It's not an insurance policy, it's self-funding because everything's covered. So, um, you know, you, you can't have all, all claims covered under a policy. One, the premiums would become unrealistic. Um, and obviously you look at the aging population that then becomes an issue. Um, so yeah, you can't, you can't cover everything. Um, but what you can do is whenever. You explain a benefit or why something's covered or not covered. You can have human empathy and deliver it in a, in a way that the member understands. They still may not like it because at the end of the day, it's something that's not gonna be covered. But like you say, at least they understand why it's not covered, and I have found that. A number of companies that I, when I've looked out there, they just, they just don't provide that clarity or they don't provide the time and effort to provide that clarity, which is important,
Francois: companies. Yeah, right, exactly. So it's a, it's a, it is a basis of the trust. The clarity is 1, 1, 1 basis of the trust. One other basis of trust, I think is also the cultural element.
Which is, um, it is so important when you come from a, a big country. Or a small country, although I must say that I made a mistake to think that if you come from a small country, you're more able to see and understand that other, uh, culture exists and, and, and to bridge that, uh, because there's a gap of understanding. There's a gap of, um, there's dark codes are words, you know, in, in, obviously everybody can hear. I'm, I'm French speaking, but, um, if you, if you have, um, people in France, Switzerland, or Belgium. We'll have the same coverage. And there's one element which is so important, is the wording is different in each of the countries. So if you, if you speak to a Swiss or a French, you need to, to use a different word and, uh, to to demonstrate. To the client that you're understanding more her. And that is actually a defining element where, where Broker gave us training on those differences because they were closer to the, to to, to the population and, and I think with India population that you. You service, you, you have this competitive advantage over so many. I mean, I, I don't think that any insurance company, unless it's an Indian company, is able to compete with you, whether the German American, uh, French Luxembourgish, or Spanish, or, I'm, I'm going to forget lots of nationalities here. I don't want to forget any, but let's, let's, let's start there. Um, they, they are not, they do not have the ability to service. Indian population in a way like you do, but it's also something that you, you deliver and, and at the time is the understanding of the other side because a fully Indian company doesn't have the ability to look outside. So going back to my element saying, uh, small country, I mean you, you need to bridge the culture or gap. You need to also understand that small countries, um, do not have that ability always, even it is an international outward looking country, but the biggest, the country, the more inward looking you are and the less able, because the process are geared towards internally, the internal way of the, the country, how it works there with the system, with the population and, and, and all the, the, the things that go with them. That looking outward, the ability to, to think in internationally is, is is also a very, very critical aspect. So it's marrying both that I find a success factor in our industry.
Mike: Yeah. Look, um, I agree and disagree slightly, so for me, you're right. The majority of our business is Indian expats overseas, but actually we now have a large number of, uh, Filipino seafarers. Uh, so seafarers are one of the big markets that we play in. Um, we've now opened an office in the US so we're starting to pick up some us, uh, travel business. Um. Yes, culture is very helpful, right? Because, um, the majority of our population currently sits about 200,000 members. Out of that, I would say 65, 70% are Indian expats, the rest of various different nationalities. But what has to be consistent, doesn't matter about the culture, the language or anything else is, is a human connection. Empathy is just. Being able to put yourself in someone's situation when they're not well, they need treatment, um, they don't understand the language, culture, et cetera. Um, is being able to go, okay, well how, how would I feel if that was happening to me? So we do, we do a lot of training with, with, with our guys that work on the calls. One of the things that we do that maybe a lot of other administrators don't do is. The people who answer our calls are actually the people who also process claims and work within the same We don't separate them and have our call centers in another building compared to our claims people or our assistance people, because we feel it's very important that you have that human. Connection with that enduser whether they be an Indian expat, whether they be a European expat, whether they be American expat or Latin American, et cetera. Um, so yes, understanding the culture, understanding where that person's from, I think is a great advantage. But more importantly is just being able to speak to that person, have that human connection. And guide them and help them and say, Hey, you need anything. These are my contact details. You can contact me. You don't have to go to the call center. You don't have to do this. You don't have to do that. And, and, and really for me, it's about how we. How we use technology to reduce the burden on our claims administrators, assistance people for the low hanging fruit. So let's say, you know, the $50 GP visit, which just really needs to go through the reimbursement process and that's it. How do we use technology to do all of that so we can get our human beings to focus more? On helping people when they need it and they want that human empathy. So, you know, probably for the slightly more serious claims.
Francois: Yeah. Okay. So probably I simplified a little bit the uh, or labeled a bit.The, the company too much on the Indian side and,but for, um, delivering to the seafarers industry, you also have an office in the Philippine or people from the Philippines. So the cultural element there, you've bridged it. Although it's part of one team, you've bridged it byacquiring a, um, a talent which is culturally oriented towards that population.
Mike: Absolutely.
Francois: And, um, I, I had the example before with French and Swiss and Belgium, although, you know, the same language, although,
Mike: Let's not go down that road.
Francois: dangerous and the jokes are going to come up. But let, let's put those jokes aside and although they could be funny, um, but let's, uh, let, let's take a, the angle that, that I actually lived when, um, in, in, um. In, Luxembourg where it was easy for us to have German speakers and, and, and, and, and German people servicing the German population and also, uh, French to service the French expats. And, and I found that always very important to be able to do so. We are the, an Irish guy who was a great guy. Very, very focused on helping people.
He spoke a bit of German and a bit of, I can't remember if he spoke French, but at least he was, you know, helping the German population. And, you know, it, it was not the same thing. You know, there is, there is a moment of distress. People want to have, they, they go back to the childhood where they learned their own home mother language basically. And this is important to have that, that that connection. So your, your human connection. It's, it's also help with the culture. It also help with the culture. Of course, smaller countries have less demand on, on, on, on that front, but it's something that I've seen, very, uh, very,
Mike: uh, yeah. Look, it's again, any business that you do or any product that you build or any service that you build, what, what are you doing? You are creating that for a human user at the end. So you are always, whatever we build, whatever we develop, whatever software we have, we're always building it to deliver some sort of service or product to a human being at the end of the day. So it's, it's, it's just going back and having that human connection everywhere. Everyone loves that. And we, of the things that, you know, concerns me is I see more and more kids, including my own spending more and more time just looking into screens. There's no human connection. Where, where, where's that? Where's that empathy? Um, where's that? Being able to deal with, uh, human beings, how to communicate, how to have patience. You know, one of the things now is with AI and chat, chat, GPT and everything else, uh, you know, maths, you can do all of your maths through there. Well, very easy, but actually learning your times table or something simply like that, what does it teach you? Teaches you how to problem solve it teaches you to have patience because you can't just go 12 times 12 is 144. You've gotta think through it. So I'm just a little bit worried about where we're going with all this sort, sort of SOC social media, and it's taking us away from being human beings, which. I think is, uh, something that we all need to get better at doing. And, um, that's why when I speak a lot about my company and how we deliver our services, it's, yes, we are, we are an InsureTech, we're driven by technology, but how do you marry that with the human side of the story?
Francois: that's a challenge that everybody's facing. And, um, I believe the AI itself cannot survive alone. It's going to be, uh, then a monolith that always think the same because it's going to get all the data and just wait all the data, the models, you know, will, will, will get, see more similar so that there has to be human trying to, to challenge that and, and steer that. And, and, and, uh, this, that's why. I welcome so many different models in AI and models of models and, and, and, and the ability to, um. To not become always the norm, you know that being normal is, uh, is too easy. And, uh, of course with ai, uh, there's such a mass of things that, that, that normality has become much broader. But, uh, it's still normal. So there has to be sometimes genius, um, and creativity that's going to spark something outside what AI can do or what standard human beings can do. Just like. You know, in painting that, that is always used by, or music or whatever it is, but something that changes the paradigm and, you know, then the model of AI will pick that, of course, but they will also then drive normality towards a, a different direction The, um, the other element is, uh, and, and in our business, I think AI can do so many things. You know, the, the, the amount of data that we have. It's, uh, it's amazing and we, we, 10 years ago, five years ago, three years ago, we're not able to use it all. But now with all the AI ecosystem that is growing, then our ability to use ai and so we have to rely on different new entrant in our ecosystem, which is actually super great. But, uh, because the more talent that is coming and, and allows us a specialist, um. I would say we are a bit old world, you know, after, you know, 30 years experiences, we can't say that we're, we're, we're fresh in here, but, uh, we, we know how the value chain works. We know how the things are working. We have, we have gut feeling, and sometimes AI is, is dreaming and, and all those, you know, model that you develop on, on, on such a large number of data, they don't give what you expect as
Mike: information.
Francois: and some of the conclusion. Can be actually fact based and, and it's great to know, but sometimes you're like, is this true? And there's so much hallucination.
Mike: yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Francois: That's one. And also because of the set of data that is being used is not the global population data. There is going to be a bias. Right. So, you know, in this part of the portfolio that you can, uh, you, you will extrapolate into for other part of the
Mike: portfolio, Absolutely. it's also, you know, the people building the AI and write, writing the code and everything else. Uh, human beings are biased. Without actually knowing it, right? If you grow up in a certain place, um, let's say Los Angeles and you grow up in Moscow, you are gonna look at things very differently because of the ba, because of how you've grown up. So it's also about the people doing the code and writing the code. And, um, my, my slight concern is, is. Um, I dunno. I was reading about, grok 4.0 and apparently it's gonna be able to write new physics by next year and build new businesses by the end of this year, which have not currently around. Uh, that for me, but I think we're going slightly off topic. I think that for me is when it starts to get concerning is how do you build a framework, a regulatory framework around AI so it doesn't then go down certain. Holes that you don't want it to go down. But I also think it brings a lot of advantage. Like one of the things that I'm currently looking at for my business is, so we wanna be able to, we deploy currently a capability through a third party call center to speak a hundred languages. Well actually now I'm sure people have seen you can get these Airbus that do simultaneous translation. Yeah. So actually can we have that software in our IVR system? Yeah, so then we're doing simul, a simultaneous translation, and we don't need a third party involved. So, you know, there's loads of things that technology's gonna bring about that, that really are helpful. Mass data, you know, AI looking at does a better job than consultants on picking out, um, breast cancer because the data set that the AI can look through is a lot more than the knowledge that that consultant has had. So it can pick it up quicker. So, you know, there's, there's loads of things that AI is gonna be great for. And, you know, I think we just need to find the right balance. And that's, that's all I'm really saying.
Francois: yeah's, as long as ai, I, I think AI and, and human will will work together so that there's the element of prevention. So, uh, what, uh, so there's breast cancer detection or cancer detection, or let, let's go broad, you know, illness detection, um, there's this. With, with ai, we, we can now start to, to, to, detect before cancer already,
Mike: Yeah. It's amazing
Francois: and we're just at the beginning, but how great is that?To, to be able to be early in, early stage and be able to, um, to, to, to tackle the situation. So that's just an example that in prevention this, in our industry, there's so much that's going to be done. It is very expensive. So it doesn't mean that it's going to be cheaper for the, for the people, but isn't that there is value to it, that, you know, our industry will become not only a payer or a service. A servicing agent when, when people are sick, but also a company and helping those, those clients to stay healthy. Of course, reducing the claim, but there's a lot of, uh, work that has to be done at the beginning. There is of course always the element of judgment. And, and, and there has to be, I spoke about clarity earlier. The moment where you say no to clients, to be clear, of course, if you say to somebody, you know, you're gonna get cancer in two years time, if you go on like this, some people will not accept that and will keep on doing what they're doing. So there's a lot of hard work that will need to be done. And the danger or the, the. What people are afraid of, uh, about ai. Um, you can't replace the moment when you tell somebody and work with somebody to towards being healthy. AI will not, will not help. So the jobs will change, but for me, the job will remain and they will be much, much broader. And it's just simple. 1, 1, 1 simple example, which is amazing by the way, that that that is going to happen.
Mike: I think, you know, I think the upside is, is great. The downside is a bit worrying, but I think, um, I, you know, like you've, you've just been speaking about, I think there's, there's great opportunity. I think one of the things we, we spoke about quite early on when, when, uh, when we started working together was, uh, the insurance industry as a whole has to become proactive rather than reactive. The insurance industry for way too long has been a re reactive Something happens to you. You go to hospital, we pay for that. Well, actually, why are we allowing people to have diabetes, chronic heart disease, and all of these serious issues? Why are we not working on preventing those issues? And I think there's a lot of. New treatments that are coming to the forefront that we're seeing, you know, peptides, et cetera, that can really help us with that journey. I mean, I've, I, I, I haven't got it on today, but I have an apple iWatch. I've got my ultra human ring and I've got my whoop. I literally track every metric that I possibly can. What we need to start doing and what I actually think potentially can, the insurance industry could really take advantage of, but we have to get around the data protection have is how can we actually start to use that data to do individualized underwriting? Because if you are, if you are, I'm being a bit generalistic, but more than likely, if you're gonna have a whoop, you've got a, you've got a ultra human ring to record your data, you're probably gonna be in the healthier section of the because you've gone out and spent that money to track all these things. Probably um, is, but I can actually see a future where you start to use that data. Form to do individual underwriting, so you potentially could have a much better premium rate than someone else just based off of how much effort you are putting in during the year to stay healthy and how, how can we encourage people to be healthy? Because it's good for everyone. Doesn't matter where you come from, doesn't matter if you are rich, not rich, you're an athlete, you're not an athlete. It's good to be healthy. It's good to be active. The concern I have is the way technology's going. It's almost driving us to be more seditary. Stay at home, sit at home, look at your iPad, look at your phone. How do we get people more active, um, to have a healthier and better life?
Francois: Yeah. And I think there's, there's stages. I, I don't think anyone, everybody has the same level of willingness to be, to be healthy. Yeah. There's also a moment in life where it's, it's very challenging. Let's take, uh, an expat who has a lot of pressures. First assignment in, um, 10,000 kilometers away from home. Um, he, he worked very hard at a university to get the job due to get the diploma. Then he get the job, the family paid for it. So the pressure of him or her to succeed where he is or she is, is going to be extremely high. And I don't think that that person at that moment, in, in, in his career, in her career will be towards being healthy.
Mike: Hmm. Yeah, I agree. And I, I, I, I think you are, you're, you're right. Um, especially coming from sort of, uh, you know, the geographical location, where my family comes from and everything else. When they send children overseas to study, they're literally spending all of their money. So the kids first thought is, well, how am I gonna get that money back to the parents? How am I gonna pay this off? But what people need to realize is. That's important. That's a bit of a short term view because if you don't stay healthy, you're not gonna be able to work. So, and also we find from sort of the data that we see, the healthier populations of employees actually are more productive at work. So. How do we help those individuals try to stay as healthy as possible because we know that'll be better for them. It'll be less cost impact on insurers or the social care system. It'll produce better results for the employees that they work for. It'll be produce better results for them at home. Um, you know, you, you, you tend to find people that are fit and healthy are also happier, et cetera. So it's, it's, it's just the whole ecosystem. How, how do you do that? But, you know, it's easier said than done.
Francois: It's, it's you, you spoke earlier about, uh, not being reactive, but being proactive. And, um, if we look at the ecosystem today and every, all the tools that are popping up,They improve the way we service client. So it's about reducing maybe part of the bill in the long term or making sure that. we, We, the servicing the element of, of trust is there for the client, But that's just reducing the, the bill a little bit for the, for the client. And the client. Meaning the HR department is going to choose the, the insure and servicing agent, uh, or the level of the, of the coverage. But there is also,for companies, absentism is a gigantic And, uh, retrain somebody talent. There's a war of talent, which is getting worse and worse.There is a, a, the cost of of treatment is, is getting higher and higher.So, you know, the, the employers are the one at the end of the day who pay the bill, And it is about how do you divert the build. Do you divert it today a bit more today to make sure that it's a long term or today's, uh, you know, there is no money because, you know, for imperative reasons, whether it's a bad cycle moment or so that there is not mo enough money to do the prevention. So there, it's, it's the whole ecosystem has to work together and be responsible and not necessarily. Put the break on, um, on, on, on the prevention, uh, side of the, of the, of the, of the coverage. But really working towards that. And, and I find that the ecosystem today is, is growing in on the prevention.Lots of employers are looking at, uh, the plans that we offer. Not necessarily into, you know, this is a marketing log. Great, you know, you getting get glasses and you know, it's great to have glasses every year or two years. But, and, and, and sometimes it's needed, but this is not the moment of truth, the moment of that, that's the flashy moment. The moment of truth is making sure that we're there for the client when there is a, uh, sickness, uh, in, in either the employee or their family. That, uh, the person is back, back to work. ASAP. Another element you mentioned, and I'm sorry, I will let you, uh,
Mike: ah, that's a hiccup for it
Francois: GDPR, so it's like the European, um,
Mike: data protection,
Francois: which, which, which grows everywhere, but in a different way.And, um, it, they will never be, uh, the same one everywhere. So it is a dream or, or, or a nightmare, depends on, on which side of the equation you. You, you, you start thinking, but you know, it, it's an important element and, uh, people feel safe when it's data protection, but it's actually working against them. this is a challenging bit. This is, I don't think today we have all the answers so we, we can even start designing the answers for, for, for this. What I find is that the, the data act in the, in, in the EU is actually pushing now to, to insurers and, and you know, data owners to make. Data more public. So at least when the model are going to be run, they will not be run onto a biased or, you know, you know, it's just like a little piece of which is still big set of data, but little piece of the equation, but on a larger piece of the population to balance it and, and, and get, get better result. And, and, and, and that should also work on the, on the prevention side. The, um, this, the, the last element here is how do we make sure. It works between the prevention conclusion of the model and, and translate that into, into, uh, actionable actions.
Mike: Yeah. Look, I've, I think, you know, two things I take away from what you said. One is in regards to data, data protection. I think you're right. In some sense, look, it made sense why pe, why, why people wanted to bring out GDPR and et cetera to protect your individualized data. And that seemed is fair. But I think in certain elements it actually, as you sort of touched on it, it works against you. Because if you could see my health data, my underwriting data on an individual basis compared to, let's say someone else of my age, 51 that is a smoker, has done no exercise, doesn't eat healthily, and then you compare that to my results, I would hope that I'm significantly. In better shape, in better health. I mean, I wear this, whoop, and it tells me that my, my body's age is actually 43 years old, where I'm 51. So I've put a lot of time and effort into, I'm very proud of that. Franso. Yes. Thank
Francois: you. I'm amazed. Yes, it is great.
Mike: I put a lot of time and effort into that. So there should be some reward, right? Yeah. Uh, life is not about not making an effort. All the people I know who've been successful, like yourself and other people, I know it's not easy. It's a, it's hard work, right? It's hard work. Life is not supposed to be easy. It's supposed to be a challenge. It's supposed to be hard, right? You go back to when we started and we were clobbering animals to eat and wearing seal fur and things like that. It wasn't easy. So for me, what I find I would like to see more of is people making that individualized effort and that decision in themselves to say, Hey, I'm gonna be healthy. I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that. Um, and, and I think that will make for a much better, much better planet. It,
Francois: would, it would, and all the players have to have to do their bit on that one. If I, if I can conclude and from the insurance side, you, you touch on one super important element is, uh. Hyper-personalization. So,uh, it's done on the, on the servicing side, on the ability to, to provide to the client the, the, the most adapted possible coverage,which is great.And, uh, but if you look from the, uh, the risk management side and purely riskier,you're gonna say, okay, I know all this. I, that person, I'm going to exclude, um, diabetes or this type of cancer because there's some signs. Yeah. But it's, that's not insurance. That's okay. It, it is insurance. But you know, what's the point of excluding all those elements or making them much more expensive if insurance is about mutualization of the risk.
Mike: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So
Francois: It may or may not happen. So this push to the extreme means no insurance is necessary because then the price for you will be your exact price for your whole life.
Mike: based on the treatments that you're gonna have. So what's the point? Yeah, Yeah, that's a good
Francois: I don't need insurance. The insurance is then, then, then should be there for the cash flow moment, you know, so if you pay a little bit, then of course, uh, you pay a little bit in, in, in the premium or the employee pays a little bit of premium. So when the cash flow is, is is happening, you don't have to sell the house or you don't have to
Mike: That's exactly it. Yeah.
Francois: this is the key moment, right?
Mike: Yeah, that's exactly it. For me, it's, it's, you are right. In one way, you are almost taking the risk out of the policy, because if you've got enough medical data on an individual, you could probably start to predict what the health pattern's gonna be going forward, rather than say, you kind of know, well, this guy's not really gonna, or this woman's not gonna make any claims under this because of this, this, and this. But for me it's about. It's almost like you've got a savings account, right? You're putting a little bit away for a rainy day, and this is you putting away a little bit for a rainy day in regards to your health. Because if you come up and all of a sudden you get a shock claim for, you need a triple heart bypass and it's gotta be paid for privately, no one's gonna have that 70 $500,000 in their, in, in, in their bank account to pay for it.
So that's really what I see insurance as being. But for me, it's. Look, I think there's always a place for insurance and I, I, I talk to my friends about this all the time, right? If you think of any product, any service, there's an insurance policy that you can buy for that product or that service. So insurance is one of the most fundamental things that we have in this world, but not many people realize it. So, you know, um, I, I, I, I think in regards to health, I just wanna see a more healthy population. In general, whether that's insurance, non-insurance, just in general, I wanna see a more healthy human race. I think too much of it is going in the wrong direction and that we need to turn around and I think insurance can play a big part in it. I think one of the difficult things, you know, from, from the sort of product side of it is even that's becoming more individualized, seriously, you know, with individual add-ons you can buy and everything else. How do we, as you sort of said, how do we get to that sort of hyper. Personalized, individualized policy, um, is, is, is gonna be interesting and how we can leverage technology
Francois: Oh,
Mike: little while.
Francois: Well, I think technology will play a, a big
Mike: It has to, it has to,
Francois: You know, we, we can't be there all the time for a client. Um, and by that I mean, we are there for client all the time, but as a moment where, you know, it's a night or there, there's, the office is closed and, and, and maybe you can rely on other offices, uh, et cetera, around the world, but it, you know, there's always a moment of downtime. I think technology will, will, uh, will help us to, uh, to be there for client all the time, accelerate things. And our role is actually, you spoke about savings account. Uh, clients are not alone. You know, it's, it is the moment of crisis that ensures, and, and, and the, the servicing, the TPAs, uh, and the rest of the ecosystem. He's actually working to make it, to make it, uh, possible for the client to get a treatment immediately or the right moment for him or her.
Mike: Yeah. yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, we've been talking about this insurance landscape and everything else and how it's changing and technology wise. I, I, I think there's, um, it's gonna be, it's gonna be interesting to see and, uh, and especially for yourself, you know, someone who's, Been a leader in this industry and, um, pioneered, pioneered certain things. I think it's gonna be interesting from a product design and underwriting perspective and the access to big data, how that will help big underwriters and actuaries become more accurate and more, more sort of, um, able to be, uh, individualized. Uh, it's, I I think there's a lot of upside. Um, uh, that's gonna come through the technology, but I just, just want everyone to remember that we're all looking after human beings and that we cannot forget human
Francois: Completely agree. Emotions. Emotions.
Mike: Emotions. That's it. Now, time for the cocktails.